בתשובה לGil Lederman, 27/01/02 20:27
קראת יותר מדי ברצינות את הספר 54622
תחסוך ממני את הדיון הפילוסופי. אני יוצא מנקודת הנחה שהבנת מה כתבתי גם בלי ההרצאה על איך לדבר נכון מבחינה פילוסופית.
קראת יותר מדי ברצינות את הספר 54708
I would very much like to believe that I understood what you wrote - it is simply that I think it to be incorrect. speaking in an abstract manner (although I tried to carry on your example of the bread loaf) seemed natural, but this is far from being a "purely philosophical" issue. as a matter of fact, we do not even need to consider the complicated case of Israel and the palestinians.
Consider for example that you are to meet with a couple of friends from school, and when you get to the meeting point, you see them fighting with three other boys. at first, you may instinctively help your friends. but after a few minutes of fighting and evidently being the stronger side, wouldn't you be interested to know WHY exactly are we hitting these boys and get hurt ourselves? and would you still help your friends if you find out it all starts because your friends want to rape one of the boys' sister whom they find attractive (I am giving an extreme example on purpose)?
And what if you were there to begin with? what if your friends said amongst themselves "lets beat the crap out of these boys here, and rape the girl". would you help them out succeed in their goal because they are "your" group? I think I wouldn't.

Israel is a state and not a person, and so obviously does not try to rape anyone. however, is it so difficult to understand that some people think our state acts in an evil and unjust way?
This goes far beyond "understanding" the other side's point of view! sometimes in relationships between couples there exists situations where no one side is correct or incorrect, and unfortunately they both suffer from each other's actions. in these cases all you can call for your help is the sympathy and the compassion you have for the other person - try to see his point of view, suffer his own suffering, and so maybe change your behaviour not because you think it is morally wrong, but because you care for that other human being. this is obviously a course of action most people would not bother to take when the hurt person is someone they don't care for or sympathize with.

However, what I think Netanel was trying to say (and I think so myself to some degree) is not that the two sides are both right (and so we must mind our own suffering and not the other's, you may rightly insist). he claims that our actions are evil and unjust, that we try to wrongfully take what is not ours to take, and that we purposely cause harm to people who do not deserve it. he claims that it is not -decent-. he does not believe in it. in fact, he believes quite the opposite!

Why is it betraying oneself to refuse to fight for everything you hold unjust, refuse to cooperate and defend what you find to be malicious and wrong?

קראת יותר מדי ברצינות את הספר 55301
אני יכול לדבר איך שאני רוצה, בצורה מופשטת או מדויקת זה לא משנה אם אתה מבין את דבריי והבנת אותם טוב מאוד.

אם אתה הולך נגד הקבוצה שלך אתה במידה מסוימת בוגד גם בעצמך. זה משפט מעולה נכון מובן ופשוט. אם אתה חושב שהוא לא משפט נכון...זכותך. אני חולק עליך.

בעניין דבריו של נתנאל. הבנתי אותם טוב מאוד. והגבתי על החלק שרציתי להגיב עליו. נתנאל טען שצריך להיכנס למוחו של האחר כדי להגיע להבנה טובה יותר של הצד השני ולהזדהות עימו ועם כאבו, ועל רעיון זה שלו הגבתי. אל תגיד לי בבקשה מה נתנאל אמר או לא אמר. אני קראתי את דבריו בדיוק כמוך (או לפחות כמעט בדיוק כמוך).

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