בתשובה לmao more then ever, 28/04/06 13:13
Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381496
אני קצת מופתע מכך שמעולם לא ראית שני כלבים זכרים מתפנקים. אבל בכל מקרה, יש לי חדשות בשבילך: הומוסקסואליות התגלתה בטבע. ראה למשל כאן:


In the approximately 1,000 to 3,000 species whose behavior has been well researched and described in the literature, approximately 450 have been shown to have clear homosexual behaviors

אבל חשוב מכך: קשה לי מאד לראות כיצד העובדה (שגויה או לא שגויה) שהתנהגות מסויימת לא מתרחשת בטבע מצדיקה איסור על ההתנהגות הזו. חיות גם לא מקיימות פולחן דתי, ולא מעוניינות לעלות לישראל. עדיין, לא תביא את זה בתור הצדקה לאיסור על פולחן דתי או על עלייה לישראל.

למען הסר ספק, התגובה שלי עוסקת לא באיסור על פולחן דתי ולא באיסור על ההומוסקסואליות, אלא בהצדקה של האיסור הזה באמצעות הטיעון: "בטבע זה לא קורה".
Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381536
I just wanted to recommend people again to use pseudo-names, your government has black lists of people who think critically, and with the new “patriotic law” and the latest authorization of Bush to illegally spy on people (not that they did not do it before) things are gating difficult.

The article that you referred to was written in 2000, the book itself was written in 1999.
I don’t think that before the 1980 anyone knew that animals practice homosexuality.

Part of understanding human behavior comes from researching nature. And part of the old scientific view was that fundamentally humans have sex so they can pas on their genes. So, what does it says about people who “chose” not have sex with woman? But that was exactly the mistake of the communist movement, looking at sexuality as a very rigid thing and not being able to have an open mind about this. But what’s more important is that the communist movement at the time (and I would say even today) did not understood that homosexual compose an oppressed minority as well and can be united towards a revolution. For example the fact that animal don’t change their sex does not mean that transsexual is a reactionary behavior (beside the point that there is no way to define what is a “man” and what is a “woman”). On the contrary, transgender are allies of the proletarian towards a better future because of their oppression. There is more work that needs to be done in the communist movement in uniting gender oppressed people.

I think that when we criticize political movements we also need to pay attention to the time and the ideas that were around than. Everything is a progression of something else, nothing is born perfect, and everything in the universe develops through contradictions and leaps. Capitalism and communism were a developments of old production systems, it took capitalism hundreds of years and bloody revolutions to develop from feudalism, and communism would not be around without capitalism and the need to destroy it. We all do mistakes, as humans and as political movement. The question, however, is what is objectively true and what is the goal. Is it objectively true that capitalism as an economic system cannot survive without exploitation? Is it objectively true that only a different production system can bring an end to all the misery, oppression, and enable human to be truly free? And most importantly, does your “means” correspond to the end?

You are right; we cannot outlaw religion or immigration into occupied Palestine just because animals don’t do it, (we should, however, outlaw forced immigration on the Palestinian).

Religion as Marx put it is “opiate of the people”, its represent the need of people to seek meaning in a meaningless society, a socialization and closeness in a society that is driven by cold economic laws. It’s like a drug that gives a relative high, but fundamentally is never a solution to the real problem. Religion is also a philosophical tool to explain and justify reality, and this why religion movements are usually allied with the right. In a communist society religion will be wither away (like the state and laws) as people gain real meaning in their life, view each other as equal, and are confronted with a scientific thinking.
Most religious people have never read the bible (or read it and ignore everything in it). Beside the point that the bible was proven to be false by archeologist and the evolution theory, it is a document full of genocide, oppression, and pornography. If the bible was true it would mean that God, who probably knews about universal laws, thought that in the bible time it would be appropriate if a man who raps a women should marry her, or that a kid who disobeys his father should be stone to death, or that a woman is part of the property of the husband. That if one wants to conquer a city he can take the women as prizes of war (after killing all the man around). It would be one thing if people will relate to this as an old script just like the Egyptian or the Maya property and civil law, its another thing to uphold it as God giving laws or to justify with it the oppression and genocide against the Palestinian and the right of Jews to take land that is not theirs.

I think people should be allowed to immigrate to different places, as a communist I want to abolish all borders and states. At this time, however, we cannot do without them. The question also needs to be why do people immigrate to Israel? Is it from a racist Zionist ideology, that objectively only serves Amerikkka and imperialism? Does it have anything to do with the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Why one by law can have the rights of obtaining land that is not his (by the name of god?) while others who leave their land for a couple of months cannot return?

I’m surrey for writing to much; it’s just that discussion should be part of politics and the current struggle. I don’t want this to become like other debates on this website an intellectual masturbation.

art or ideas in the abstrac 381580
Another way to put it, is that since their no such thing as ideas (or art) in the abstract or above classes, and that all ideas in society correspond to a class out look. If sexuality is mainly for reproduction then that would put homosexuality as a “choice” (idea).

There is no such thing as individual “truth”, there is only objective reality. Well there is obvious b.s. that is not so hard to determine to what class ideology they belong, like one who says “I’m a Zionist and I really believe that the state of Israel is democratic and should be defended from Arabs.” Well, he can really believe that, but objectively Zionism is just another tool in the hand of the imperialist (the same one who support dictators in countries around Israel) and most of the citizens in Israel cant really practice democracy (beside the point that in class society their no such thing as democracy). Or in art, TV sitcoms or movies who portray Arabs or women in degrading ways are representative of a reactionary class outlook. Or music can be defined by the lyrics or the culture that it represents. On the other hand art or ideas that deal with progressive things would be a representative of a proletarian ideology. What I’m trying to get to is that in general there is no such thing as ideas in the abstract or above class ideology.

Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381615
תודה על ההבהרה.

הניסוח המקורי שלך היה:
"To their defense I can only say that examples of homosexuality in nature were not discovered yet"

שהוא קצת מטעה. לאחר קריאה של התגובה החדשה, נדמה שאם הייתה כותב במקום yet את הביטוי at that time , זה היה קרוב יותר למה שהתכוונת.
Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381617
As you can probably see my English is not very good. I’m surrey for the misunderstanding (I can always try to translate things to Hebrew).

I’m wondering however, do you have any knowledge about the gay/lesbian/transgender struggle in Israel?

Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381623
האנגלית שלך מספיק טובה. אי ההבנה הזו היתה באותה מידה יכולה לקרות בעברית.

לגבי המאבק ההומוסקסואלי בישראל, אין לי הרבה ידע. אבל אם אתה מתעניין, אז למרבה השמחה בישראל קיימים כמה ארגוני זכויות אדם שיש להם מידע בנושא. הם פועלים בצורה חופשית וחוקית ואפשר לפנות אליהם ללא חשש שתשלח לסיביר. נסה להקליד בגוגל ''זכויות אזרח ישראל''.
Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381631
I have too much information about “human rights” in Israel. I gauss that it’s always good to knew that as long as you are Jewish your rights will be protected.

My question was with regard to different gay groups that are not delusional about their “freedom” and “democracy”. They are fighting to end the occupation; I think the name of one of the groups is something like “black sheep”. It’s always interested me how people who start to wonder about their own rights (like feminist groups in Israel) end up fighting for everyone’s rights.

I’m too tired right now to go in to whole subject of reeducation camp.

In any case, thanks.

Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381663
זכויות אדם מגיעות לכולם, גם לכאלו שהם delusional לגבי החופש שלהם או הדמוקרטיה שלהם. והזכויות האלו כוללות את החופש להביע דעה, בפרט אם היא מנוגדת לאידיאולוגיה של השלטון. החופש הזה הוא אחד מהמדדים החשובים לזכויות אדם. במדד הזה, ברה"מ הסטאלינסטית לא הצטיינה, בלשון המעטה. בוודאי ובוודאי בהשוואה לישראל.

מי שקורא את התגובות שלך, עשוי לקבל את הרושם שמצב זכויות האדם בתקופת סטאלין בברה"מ היה טוב יותר מהמצב כיום בישראל. לדעתי הרושם הזה שאתה מנסה לצור הוא זה שראוי לכינוי delusional. או, כמו שמכר שלי, עולה מרוסיה, נהג לאמר (בציניות שרק רוסים מסוגלים לה): "פראבדה, ברוסית, זה אמת" (ואגב, זה גם שם של פרק בספר "עריצה היא הלבנה" מאת רוברט היינלין). המצב בישראל הוא רחוק מלהיות מושלם, אבל, בוא נכנס לפרופורציות.
Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381676
Before I answer your comment, I feel that you should read my comments again. I think that did not understand my writing, and what I meant. Its o.k. if you don’t, no one will kick you out of your house, take your land, and force you to move to refugee camp. No one will starve your family as a collective punishment and bolduse your house in order to maintain security and than kill your daughter or kid and justify it since at the age of six they were already terrorist. No one will arrest you just because you belong to the wrong religion, torture you, torture your family, torture your friends, retrieve fake evidence from you, force you to betray your relative, try you in a military court, and jail you in an inhuman condition. After all, this is not Siberia, or communist Russia, this is the democratic state of Israel.
Out of the closet/ why cant we just be friend 381685
כן, את המנטרה הזו כבר שמענו. אבל לדבריי לא התייחסת. חבל.
comerade Stalin 381759
As I said before you did not understand my comments (nor did you read my other comments). In writing about gay and lesbian groups fighting the occupation I was trying to make the point that although in Israel there are some groups who enjoy some “democratic” rights, they do not let that stop them from fighting for other peoples rights, mainly against the racist occupation of Palestine.

I never compared between Israel and Russia, my comment about Stalin was a respond to people who asked me about Stalin. I don’t think that there a way to compare between the two. Would it make sense to you if I would camper between communist Russia and French under napoleon? How about revolutionary China and America during the civil wars? Or America today and Britain during the 100 year war? The Russian masses were fighting a different mode of production, in a different time in history. Israel unlike Russia is not a third world country trying to gain independent from foreign powers, Israel does not have thousands of peasants dieing from starvation and preventable diesis, did not face invasion by different imperialist army’s, and did not lose supplies by armies of land lord who would rather burn food then sell it to the masses. What’s amazing here, is that Russia over came all of that, outlaw oppression against different minorities, defended her self from imperialist army’s from inside and outside, and managed to achieve a better mortality rate then the one in N.Y. saving hundreds of lives a year.

If you really want to camper Russia to other countries you should camper it to other countries at that time. Imperialist and dominant countries such as, the British Empire where worker work for 16 hours a day and the oppression implicated through organization like the British east India company, French imperialism, or America with the lynch system and the crashing of the economy in the 30’ and the starvation of millions of people as a consequence. Or better yet, to third world countries in that time, like China with the death of thousands of people from starvation and diesis, Algeria under the rule of France, or the Native American or African American under the colonial rule of America. I wrote a whole thread about how we should judge movements with regard to time and place. The choices of the USSR was not between liberal human-rights utopia on the one hand and tsarist era backwardness on the other. People from the West focus too much on issues such as “freedom of expiration” and the right to vote and not enough on causes of death such as food, clothing and basic medical care being lacking. Not only that, what does it mean when people are “allowed” to criticizes their government but can never change their lives to the better or affect in any way the political system? In soviet Russia people were allowed to criticize the government and more than that, their government was actually really working to achieve a better future.

Did Stalin did mistakes, yes. Was it worth it, definitely. I would always support someone who is willing to fight for what is right, against oppression and genocide then someone passively sitting at his home talking about the right to criticism, ignoring reality and real oppression (and fundamentally only trying to protect his own individual previlage). Beside the point that Mao learned from Stalin errors and developed the science of revolution to a whole new level. Russia have achieve for her time things that other third world countries only dreamed of. As I said, you should judge political movements in their time and place in history and the direction that there are going.

Third world countries can never achieve their independent peacefully. And after a revolution classes still exist. Revolution is not a fine dinner party, or a quiet transformation in life. Revolution is an arm insurrection in which one class fights another, and gain control over the economy and life.

In your country for example, after a revolution their still will be thousands of settler and racist people who would not only “criticize” the new people government, but would act to fight for their kind of reactionary future. And on the one hand you don’t want to just send all of them to Siberia. On the other hand you not going to allow them to organize or have any political rights in that regard.

Beside not really understanding what really happened in communist Russia, or the complexities of making a revolution. It also seems odd to me that you as someone who benefits from imperialism and genocide criticize Stalin. One could argue that your “rights” as a “Jew” would never exist without the oppression of the Palestinian. I would like to hear one (1) example of how the Palestinian lives (not the privilege Jewish minority) are better then the lives of people in revolutionary Russia.

קומרד מאו 381782
מצטער, התגובה שלך מתממת.

ראשית, כמעט כל דיון מוסט על ידך לעניין סבלם של הפלסטנאים\הפשעים של ישראל. אתה ממש אובססיבי בעניין זה. לא, לא החמצתי את הנקודה. פשוט לא שיתפתי פעולה בנסיון התמידי שלך להסיט את הדיון.

כאשר אתה מדבר על סטאלין, לא רק בתגובה הזו, אתה מדבר רק על טעויות שסטאלין עשה וקשיים ומורכבויות וכו וכו'. כאשר אתה מדבר על ישראל (וכאמור אתה מנצל כל הזדמנות לעשות זאת) אתה תמיד מדבר רק על צד אחד של המטבע. סטאלין הגיעה להישגים עצומים? גם מדינת ישראל הגיעה להישגים עצומים, ומנקודת פתיחה הרבה יותר גרועה מאשר ברה"מ של 48. בין היתר בזכות יהודים שעשו את החשבון והעדיפו בשנות ה 60 לעלות למדינת עולם שלישי מוכת מלחמות בשם ישראל, מאשר להשאר ברוסיה.

סטאלין נלחם למען הזכויות של כולם? נגד דיכוי? נגד רצח עם? האנשים בברה"מ היו חופשיים לבקר את הממשלה? ספר את זה לאנשים שגרו שם ובמזרח אירופה באותם שנים. זה כאמור, ממש "פראבדה" (תרתי משמע).

כשם שאפשר לטעון שהזכויות של היהודים לא היו מתקיימות ללא הדיכוי של הפלסטנאים, אפשר לטעון שה"הישגים" של סטאלין לא היו מתקיימים ללא הדיכוי של מיליונים בארצו ובארצות הגוש הקומוניסטי ואני אפילו לא מתחיל לדבר על הפשעים הכבדים יותר. אם מי שגר בישראל מוזר שהוא מבקר את סטאלין, בוודאי ובוודאי מי שחושב שהפשעים של סטאלין היו באיזשהי צורה "כדאיים" מוזר *מאד* שהוא מבקר את ישראל.

הפלסטינים יכולים ללכת למסגד או לכנסיה. והמוסלמים והנוצרים ברוסיה המהפכנית לא (במקרה הטוב. במקרה הרע הם נעצרו על עצם הפעולה הזו). כמובן, לא מאד מפתיע שאתה משווה דווקא לחיים תחת סטאלין ולא למתים תחת סטאלין.

אבל אני חש שהדיון הוא רק מטרה משנית בעיניך, והמטרה הראשית היא לחזור שוב ושוב על המנטרה שלך. צר לי אבל אני אפסיק לשתף פעולה, ברשותך. אתה אגב מוזמן לנצל את הפרישה שלי, זה נשמע כמו הזדמנות רטורית מעולה. באמת :)
קומרד מאו 381833
If it just a mantra why are you so bothered by it? Is it because something about this mantra is true?

My duty as communist is to educate people and to direct them towards a revolution. I’m not here to participate in the usual intellectual masturbation. While I’m wasting my time writing this lines kids are dieing in third would countries (and yes in Palestine too) as a direct consequence of people like you who don’t want to be bothered with the reality of exploitation and genocide.

Do you think that if this website existence in Germany during w.w.2 it would be appropriate for me to debate people about poems or movies? Or about the differences between a republic and a monarchy? While you’re reading these lines kids in Africa South America and Asia are dieing from starvation and preventable diesis while people like you are benefiting from that holocaust. If you have no idea or interest in ending that holocaust, get the f**k out of the way.

Stop repeating lies and gossip and behaving like a “good Germen”, stop playing the victim and try to brake away from the party-line brain washing type of thinking. Your country was always supported by different imperialists’ powers. Palestine would never be settled by Jewish immigrants without the aid of Britain, and never win its wars of inhalation without the aid of the American money and weapon. And if you have anything to say about communist Russia why don’t you say it? If Stalin and communism are so bad it would not be so hard for you prove it.

Its funny that while you talk about my mantra, you stop to say that Palestinian can go to Musk, so did Jews in concentration camps, what is your point exactly? Your rhetoric about religion in Russia disserves no answer.

And yes, you choosing to run away and hide from this discussing, provides more then just a proof to your inability to “prove” your claim about Stalin and Israel. It shows your individualistic personality and disregard to human lives.

קומרד מאו 381905
אינך חייב להשתתף בדיון. אבל אם אחרי זה אתה מתפלא שאני מסרב להשתתף איתך בדיון זה מוזר. והגידופים שלך רק מוכיחים כמה ההחלטה שלי לפרוש היתה חכמה. אני גם אמנע לעשות את הניתוח פסיכולוגי בגרוש וחצי שאתה עשית לי. אם כי, ראוי לציין שמנקודה זו נראה שאתה הוא זה שמוטרד מאד מהדברים שלי.

הצהרת שחובתך היא "לחנך אנשים למהפכה". אם כך, אני מאחל לך המשך פרופוגנדה נעים. סאלוט, קומרד מאו!
I thought you left? 381948
1. ignore everything that was said
2. change the subject
3. say the last word

1. ignore everything that was said
2. change the subject
3. say the last word

1. ignore everything that was said
2. change the subject
3. say the last word

I wish you too a pleasant life in the democratic state of Israel undisturbed by stupid things like genocide and oppression.

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