בתשובה לאיציק ש., 24/09/06 6:58
Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411230
I was not clear enough, my point was to try and put Stalin in his historical contence. That leaders do not just arrive from the no where to provide love and attention to the child-like masses. Mess starvations have existed in Russia long before Stalin. Starvation and oppression is what led millions of people to support and become communist, the collectivizing was one way to deal with that. Part of the starvation also happen because of rich kulaks burning their supplies of food and imperialist army invading Russia and assisting the white army(to bring another point about the anarchy that the Russian communist party had to deal with).

I would also disagree with amount of people that you say died during that time.

Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411232
אתה מתייחס למלחמת האזרחים כשעדיין לנין וכל ראשי הבולשביקים היו חיים.. אני מתייחס לשנות הקולקטיביזציה לאחר ששלטון הסובייטים כבר היה יציב, טרוצקי כבר לא היה בבריה''ב, לנין כבר היה מנוחתו עדן וכו'. ייתכן והיו עדיין אכרים ששרפו יבולים אבל הסיבות העיקריות נבעו מהאופי הברוטאלי,הזמן הקצר של הביצוע וחוסר התייחסות לקשיים הארגוניים של טרנספורמציה כל כך ראדיקלית.
Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411253
The communist regime was not stable in the 30s. There was still division in labor and division between the country and country side. All the things that I mention were the historical contacs that were part of and led to the 30s, plus the analysis by the communist party that the country needed to be industrialize because of the German threat. Were people dieing from starvation during that time? Yes, was it obvious that Germany is going to invade? Yes, was the industrialization justified? I think so. I don’t know how Russia would have fought WW2 and starvation without that. The Russian masses fighting the kulaks was a right respond to inequalities. What amaze me the most is to try to blame the communist for starting the faming.

What sources do you have about the millions who died during the 30’s? From what I have read the story about the death of millions from famine have started not in Russia but in Chicago, by the Chicago Press news paper owned by a white supremacist (I might be wrong).

How would you have dealt with being a leader of a country where still thousands are hungry and Germany is preparing to invade you? From my space and time I would do things differently, but have an understanding of reality from all the mistakes that communists before me have done. This knowledge the Russian party did not yet had.

Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411261
אמנם זהו מקור קצת שיטחי ובעייתי כי לא מצאתי אחר, אבל עיקר
הקושי של הקולקטיביזציה והרעב הגדול היה בשנים ב-‏32-33 . מיליונים מתו מרעב באוקראינה. היכן אתה רואה בשנים הללו התקפה גרמנית על בריה"מ?
Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411351
Well, preparation for a war started with the demise of the communist party in Germany (who held the slogan “after Hitler, us”…….) and the rise of the Nazi party in Germany. It was obvious from Hitler speeches that the German ruling class was planning to invade the east. Hitler always talked about enslaving the Slavic nation and the communist threat. The whole industrialization process was implemented partly to build a strong army. The Moltove-Rebbetrop agreement was another way to buy some time for the Russia to move some basses from the front and to keep industrialize the country. Stalin at the time made a falls and a very problematic statement “he who has the stronger army will win” (or something like that).
Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411372
אבל ב-‏1932? ב-‏32 בכלל לא היה ברור שהנאצים יעלו לשלטון. דוקא בסוף 1932 החלה ירידה של הנאצים (מה שכנראה הוביל לעלייתם לשלטון).
Israeli gulags and Israeli hypocrisy 411381
You might be right about that. Still, Russia was not a stable place it was still a third world country trying to overcome feudalism.

Look, don’t take this personally but I’m feeling uncorftabull talking about gulags, starvation, and commonism as if they are things in distant history. All those things are happening as I write and I feel aqward not connecting them to day to day struggle (or to be more frank to Palestine). My unity with people (even people who oppose communism) is based on an all around fight against oppression, not just oppression that might have happened 70 years ago. If I would be convince one day that Stalin was a dictator who tortured and killed his people for joy, I would stop upholding him as an important political figure. My political orientation is that Stalin can help us in understanding and building a batter future. I came here to make point and I think I managed to make it.

Take care, ill be around.


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